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Post by flamingkillamajig on Nov 7, 2011 18:29:42 GMT -5
Ok so mine today was against a friend with 1.5k of skaven vs orcs and goblins.
I had big honkin units and he didn't. He definitely ran around me and surrounded my big unit of clanrats. However i managed to use plague and scorch several times and at the end of our game when he surrounded just the big clanrats unit i plagued the shit out of it and took out a lot of our stuff.
My magic phase was pretty good and i got most of what i wanted off. His magic was pretty bad this game even with a +5 to his casting value. The clanrats and grey seer eventually ran and my plague furnace did kill itself completely which was stupid of me (difficult terrain). However i had about 7 plague censers and 35 plague monks left with the plague priest. Not to mention the plague banner for the plague monks would allow all of them to re-roll to hit and to wound for one whole combat phase.
I managed to do ok but only because my friend didn't know how steadfast worked. Otherwise my grey seer would've been singled out and killed by his trolls supposedly. To be honest i was pretty lucky this game except in the case of plague not doing much the first time and then killing my guys a lot in our combat. He also allowed my 2nd plague to go off because it'd hurt my clanrats a lot but since all of his stuff was there i felt it'd do a lot of damage to him too and i just wanted to see stuff die. Besides unstrength units would really help for the rest of my army to face since my clanrats were a cheap unit to sacrifice.
Basically he had to go so he took me home and went to work. I feel pretty good about the game but he made a bunch of points supposedly that having like 3 big honkin units doesn't work because they maneuver like shit.
My problem is most skaven stuff is above average in normal movement. They don't really outflank very well because for everything but the vermin lord top movement is 6 on rat ogres and 5 for troops. However gutter runners might be able to do well with positioning. Other than that they don't have much in the way of outmaneuvering people so much as just swamping the battlefield.
I don't know i think i still have a lot to learn with this game. My friend has played for like 12 years or something. So in comparison my 4 years of total GW gaming experience isn't that much.
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Post by Chopperdacat on Nov 7, 2011 20:19:30 GMT -5
Very interesting batrep, FKM....GW experience doesn't always mean everything, at least that's what I have learned....but then again most of the tactics I have learned is when to advance my guardsmen forward to their death to foil an enemies devious plan
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Post by flamingkillamajig on Nov 7, 2011 20:43:30 GMT -5
Well i'm unsure what to think of his tactic of surrounding an enemy with multiple units as 8th edition kind of fucked over the movement face in many ways. If i have a big ass unit and kill the one in front with superior strength it doesn't matter if i'm getting flanked on the sides and rear i will probably get all 3 units to run. What annoys me is he doesn't understand this. I think big units are the focus in 8th. The only reason what he said was working is i had a big unit of weak guys and they still held up ok due to steadfast. I think the biggest problem is he hasn't played very much and possibly not since the last time we've played. He didn't even know about the steadfast allowing my unit to have steadfast regardless of being flanked since i still had superior numbers.
I still think a chieftain with a BSB would be optimal though for my skaven esp. if they get flanked and lose their rank bonus for leadership. I enjoy his advice but i still think i'll somewhat go against it anyway. I may cut back some guys and throw out more magic and a BSB but other than that i think i'm happy.
See he probably doesn't realize some certain thing that i do. It usually doesn't matter if you flank anymore unless you have more ranks and killing power because they'll just reform and put you in their front arc. Also usually it's best not to hit somebody in the front arc if you can just hit them in the side esp. with more ranks as often people will try to get combat resolution from the enemy in their front and use it to kill other guys. Basically you want to put the tough units up front if anything which he sort of did but you would really want to do that. I don't know though as i don't have too many tough units unless i took rat ogres and got regeneration with skweel or you know used my hellpit which has toughness 5 and regeneration already. Usually that or a doomwheel could take a few hits while dishing out a bit. I think the hellpit is preferable though. Not to mention having tons of wizards is no longer too great as you roll 2d6 for magic anyway.
So yeah i think he has played a lot but his lack of playing the most recent edition enough probably has him thinking with old rules which isn't good. This is why people respect old guard but don't always agree with some of their tactics. Believe me if this was 7th i'd probably do exactly as he said but it's not.
Also i forgot that nightrunners and gutter runners have movement 6 and nightrunners at least have a sort of a scout move where they slink forward about 6"-12" before the first turn.
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Post by cheminhaler on Nov 8, 2011 15:53:35 GMT -5
Just goes to show what a difference one edition made. I read a skaven article in WD a while ago, by an expert skaven tournament player who said (for the last edition) that it was better to have lots of smaller regiments (25-30 clanrats), with similar blocks of skavenslaves in front. Now the new special rule for skavenslaves in the newer army book - they damage allied clanrats, or whatever, if they're too close to the fleeing slaves...
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Post by flamingkillamajig on Nov 8, 2011 19:52:35 GMT -5
Well to be fair what he did hurt my unit very much but not every situation ends so favorably. I could've assaulted his goblins first and if i made it then i'd have more ranks and a lot of weak guys to kill. Half the guys in my front arc were goblins but the other half was trolls which don't die easily.
I'm trying to find a good unit you can have a lot of and still be pretty powerful but it doesn't always work. Normally i do what he says anyway with my current lists but meh. I honestly don't think it works as he says. Unless you have a big ass unit that can possibly take damage and another unit which dishes out a lot of damage then it's not gonna work so well. I still want to try out that list even with his misgivings. I mean he could surround me and have bonuses but if i have a bigger unit i'm still steadfast. I'll just kill off a unit eventually and reform. Besides as i said skaven don't really have great troops or fast units so if i tried to flank it might not work. Either i couldn't flank quickly or my small units of troops would die before i could do what i want.
I mean plague censers or even cavalry and other skirmishers aren't that effective vs. big units anymore but i don't think he understands this. He might as he said regiments are the things i should want to keep alive. Honestly steadfast is a big bitch that seems to be something people just can't get rid of except in the new ogre book. My point is against anybody else like warriors of chaos or similar if i attack them on all sides with small units i'm gonna die, if i attack in the front with a big unit i'll die slowly but still probably die if i attack them on the side with a huge regiment and a unit that can take damage in the front i might win and they won't be steadfast. Even better is that a large unit of clanrats or stormvermin when there are enough can hold up a powerful unit with their steadfast while my killy unit gets into position to flank.
I mean in his tactics he doesn't understand if he hits me with several units it still won't entirely matter even if he flanks as long as i have more ranks. Sure i don't have a rank bonus but i still have more ranks and still remain steadfast. That rule is tremendous and he didn't even know about it till i told him and verified it with the GW employee.
Even if i lose the combat i can still reform amid defeat on my leadership which in this case is 7 and possibly re-rollable if i take a BSB (i think the musician can also re-roll it). Then i'd just face one of his attacking units and destroy the fuck out of it and get a bunch of combat resolution for it. Also he doesn't realize i could just turn the unit around 180 degrees and have the unit in my rear in my front arc while the other units on the side are still in my flank but nobody is in my rear. Then in my turn i just destroy the fuck out of them, i have more ranks and then i cause all the units to take break tests. Sure i'll most likely be stuck in combat but at least one of his units will be running and he takes goblins so they'd easily flee.
I think he doesn't understand because the one boost skaven and horde races have is steadfast. Skaven don't often have very killy regiments so if i had like 4 units of 20 it wouldn't do as well in 8th. Even if i flank every side a player that knows his rules and has more ranks and a better unit will just reform backwards like i said the very next turn, kill one unit and then cause my skaven to flee and with leadership 5 while fleeing they are not coming back. Honestly it only comes down to having a more numerous unit and managing to flank and not charge the front like he did.
Granted i'm skaven so what he said kind of worked but with more elite races not so much. If those were elves (any faction) or warriors of chaos then it'd just end badly. So basically you either need a unit that can take hits well in somebody's front arc with a regiment negating ranks on the side or a large regiment taking the heat from the front and getting rid of steadfast or such while the killy unit gives you more kills on the side and even with the 2nd tactic you may lose too many guys from your regiment. I suppose my point is flanking with a huge ass unit is a bit hard when you're trying to get rid of ranks with steadfast that way.
Also the only part he really has right is that i'm skaven and negating ranks ruins my leadership a bit but with queek it's gonna be 8 and with a BSB i'm most likely gonna stay. Not to mention i have 2 unbreakable units that will reform on the spot regardless of what happens.
Also he had a rant on magic about a half dozen wizards and i wonder if he knows them either. I think 4 wizards would be enough for skaven in most any game. Unless you take a ton of warpstone tokens and admittedly you could probably have 3 grey seer with d3 warpstone tokens each it also depends on how much magic you get per turn. Warpstone tokens could admittedly fix your problem with magic but with the randomness of double 1's or double 6's being rolled for magic you may have just screwed yourself for magic. Granted having several high level wizards dispelling things is nice but if you have a total of 13 spells like skaven you're probably gonna have all your spells with 3 or so level 4 wizards. Not to mention if you roll like crap for magic then good luck asshole you're going to need it. Doesn't help a lot of the new lores of magic take so much magic to cast anyway. Then there's also the deal that if you fail to cast a spell (before dispells) you can't cast any more magic with a wizard in a turn. It's ok to roll not many dice for level 1 or 2 wizards but for a level 4 you want that shit going off if you have several other spells on that wizard you want to do. Sorry for the rant but i just had one coming on.
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Post by flamingkillamajig on Nov 19, 2011 20:14:23 GMT -5
Ok my cousin was nice enough to bring me to GW and after watching an ogre player beat a beastmen player i played against a vampire counts player.
It was interesting because some bad things happened to me in the game but regardless the game was really close. My hellpit did a lot of damage. Over the course of the game the hellpit killed mannfred on his nightmare, 3 blood knights, probably 10-14 ghouls and a varghulf. Mannfred alone probably costs around 500 pts according to my roommate's army book, the varghulf was supposedly 150 pts or so, the ghouls are 8 points each and the blood knights are about 55 pts per model. All in all my hellpit probably killed probably 800-900 pts with just a 250 pts model that never died but had one wound left at the end of the game. By all rights it probably should've died a combat or 2 before the game ended esp. when he used vanhel's danse macabre after reforming his cavalry to charge my hellpit (i roll like shit of course to prevent it).
My warpfire thrower managed to kill a few blood knights as well (2 i think). To be fair i don't think he used vampire counts as well as he could've.
I was a bit disappointed in my clanrats with grey seer and fellblade warlord. For 85 clanrats allowed to have death frenzy by the opponent and then having hatred from skavenbrew they did like shit. I was most disappointed with my fellblade warlord as he wounded the varghulf 3 times but it regenerated all 3 wounds which if failed would multiply into d6 wounds. To be fair some of his saves were just ridiculous that game to which i almost feel like he had loaded dice. It was just a few lucky moments though as mannfred did almost shit against my hellpit surviving like 6 rounds of combat with the guy while fighting off blood knights and later ghouls even after that he was charged by blood knights he still lived. I'm not even sure if i let him know he lost frenzy eventually with his blood knights.
My censer bearers did a bit of damage and killed off at least a unit of skeletons but killed themselves off with toughness tests and did a bit of damage to ghouls but other than that did nothing.
The plague furnace with plague monks killed a lot of skeletons as well and wiped them out but the grave guard lived. Unfortunately the plague furnace did 5 wounds to itself and killed some of my guys in misfires which had to happen twice. Then with its remaining wound the guy's vampire miscasts and kills a bunch of his grave guard and possibly does a wound to his vampire and finally kills the plague furnace off.
At the end of the game he had probably 6 or so grave guard and a normal vampire left with maybe one or two spells. I had a hellpit with one wound but that thing was a freaking beast. Some of the units did ok but while the clanrats with warlord and fellblade and grey seer with skavenbrew only managed to disappoint me. The hellpit however was a freaking god. It was easily worth its weight in gold. I feel like i got really lucky with it but all things considered i was due a bit of luck with something.
Using the 13th spell on the grave guard or having skitterleap go off and let my grey seer move into position to do the 13th spell or cracks call (initiative test or die) would've been really nice.
Also dear god i hate parry saves. He made way too many parry saves for anybody. Still surprised he didn't use great weapons on his grave guard. Those things shred though so much shit when they have them.
Gotta say i wasn't impressed with his loadout. Mannfred seems like a waste in points for a 2k points game. I didn't see the banner on blood knights that prevents all ranged attacks even magical on a +4 ward save or the grave guard with a BSB wielding the regeneration banner.
He barely lucked out in my opinion that i clipped his varghulf after chargining my clanrats into his raised zombies as i may have been able to overrun into the blood knights if i was lucky. It's hard to say though.
I really hate vanhel's danse macabre now as you can use it once to reform or move the unit 8" including charging it into another unit. You can also use it on the same unit a 2nd time or the first time to re-roll hits and to have always strikes first which is disgusting with poisoned units as i already know with my plague censers that have hatred. Not only this but since this is a necromancy spell like raise dead and invocation of nehek they can keep using it as long as they have magic dice. Not to mention with vanhel's as if it wasn't enough blood knight charge and go so far they can also reform and if the player is smart enough swift reform (so they can reform and move their movement characteristic) and then they can use vanhel's danse macabre to move another 8 inches. Dear god i may say that'd allow somebody to basically reform their unit and then make a 15 inch charge and it'll always be a 15" charge after reforming. Remember like i said vanhel's can be used on the same unit multiple times so usually it will go off at some point unless you manage to have your opponent roll too few dice and end up not rolling high enough but it's not likely as it takes little to cast. Basically vanhel's with blood knights is really, really gay as they will most likely charge and on the charge they hit pretty hard esp. if they get vanhel's off again and get to go first and re-roll to hit.
As a last thing to say i only remembered that the vampire counts were supposed to take crumble tests for their guys when i killed mannfred. It may have done nothing but i may have tied the game up if his grave guard crumbled completely. Most likely it wouldn't have happened but one could always hope. Also i'm not sure if he had to take one or two after the game ended. You take them after the phase in which the general is lost and either the beginning or ending of the VC player's turn.
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